toaq / toaq/dictionary

«tıopūı»

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suggestion toaq
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Description

As I mentioned some time ago on Discord (don't search – it's all been elaborated on below), «tıopūı» should be removed in favour of «jeı» + regular «co RÁI». Here are my arguments against «tıopūı» itself:

  1. «tıopūı» is a metapredicate, which is a great responsiblity for a predicate to have. It's the only kind of question which isn't a MA or a SA.
  2. «tıopūı» suggests that it comes from «tıo pủı». But «tıo pủı» doesn't suggest a numeric response, but some indication of scale. (‘How many are the flowers? — Very many indeed.’)
  3. If «tıopūı» is a predicate, try using it in the second tone. «Chỏ jí tíopūı»… if this approach works perfectly fine, why have «co» in the first place? (This could be an argument against removing «co» in favour of «tıopūı», too.)

And here's why I think «jeı» + «co» is better:

  1. It's shorter to pronounce, in fact. «Jẻı co ráı rúa» has fewer morae than «Tỉopūı rúa», astoundingly.
  2. Under my anonymous SA proposal (which works only under the new SA RẢI), «jeı co ráı» would become even shorter: «jeı co».
  3. It's consistent with how one would go about using other SA as the predicate: «jeı hı ráı», «jeı sa ráı», «jeı tu ráı» (although this one doesn't really mean what you think it means), «jeı sıa ráı», «jeı ja ráı», «jeı (ke) ráı».
  4. «jeı co…» encourages us to put the type of thing we want counted in the predicate, which reflects natural usage more closely. Observe:
    1. «Tỉopūı rúa» = «Jẻı co ráı rúa» («Jẻı co rúa» with the new SA RẢI and anonymous SA) — ‘How many are the flowers’
    2. «Jẻı co rúa» — ‘How many flowers (are there)’
    3. «Jẻı co rúa ní» — ‘How many flowers is this’
    You might not agree, but I think (2) and (3) sound more natural than the vanilla way of saying it, which is (1).
  5. Suddenly, there's a plethora of ways to same the same thing, each emphasising a different aspect of the question:
    1. «Jẻı co rúa máq»
    2. «Jẻı máq co rúa»
    3. «Mảq co rúa»
    4. «Jẻı co ráı máq» («Jẻı co máq»)
    5. «Jẻı máq co ráı» («Jẻı máq co»)
    6. «Mảq co ráı» («Mảq co»)
    7. «Jẻı co ráı rúa» («Jẻı co rúa»)
    8. «Jẻı rúa co ráı» («Jẻı rúa co»)
    9. «Rủa co ráı» («Rủa co»)
    ………………………
    And we can fully exploit «jeı»'s symmetricity. The same sentences, when expressed with «tıopūı»:
    — either would have been better and shorter with «co RÁI», since «tıopūı» would need to be placed in the second tone, which is simply something we're not supposed to do. (I'm tempted to write «Mảq tíopūı rủa» for (3), but that would be plain unfair.)
    — or would have taken much more space to write and time to pronounce – for example, (1) and (4) don't differ in length, but with «tıopūı», they do: «Tỉopūı rủa máq» vs. «Tỉopūı máq».

Comments appreciated.

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  3. Fork the repository and make your change on a branch.
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Research direction

No files, tests, or entry points are identified in the issue. First determine how «tıopūı», «jeı», and «co RÁI» are represented in this draft dictionary, then resolve the proposed language-design decision before defining the resulting dictionary changes.

Written by the indexing model from the issue text.

Assessment

Domain
content
Issue type
Feature
Difficulty
5/5
Estimated time
Over a week
Activity status
Stale
Clarity
Needs clarification
Newbie friendliness
20/100

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